The Gaming Den

Rolling claw/claw/bite for 1dx+fuck damage each is BORING and BULLSHIT. It's not even remotely close to how any predator I know of actually fights.

A bear, for example, should have 3 attack options like this:
*Intimidating roar + (readied action) claw slap (damage + knockdown)
*Grab with claws (damage -> grapple check -> bite attack)
*Rush (move + knockdown)

Similarly, a Great cat does not miss with two different claw attacks, then get a single bite in.

Bears don't actually roar, though. Any time you see a bear roar on TV, they're dubbing a noise in because "it's a big animal, it's supposed to make a roaring noise".

In truth, bears are ninjas.

Cabelas D20, by rasmuswagner.

rasmuswagner wrote:Rolling claw/claw/bite for 1dx+fuck damage each is BORING and BULLSHIT. It's not even remotely close to how any predator I know of actually fights.

A bear, for example, should have 3 attack options like this:
*Intimidating roar + (readied action) claw slap (damage + knockdown)
*Grab with claws (damage -> grapple check -> bite attack)
*Rush (move + knockdown)

In 3.5E D&D, bears are perfectly capable of readying actions and making overrun/bull rush attacks, not to mention having a grab attack.

rasmuswagner wrote:Similarly, a Great cat does not miss with two different claw attacks, then get a single bite in.

In 3.5E D&D, a lion grabs on with its bite and keeps biting while it scratches with its claws. What would you do differently?

I think you can abstract it to a single roll for sure... Possibly with a bonus for each 'extra' attack.

So instead of rolling 8 (1d20+2) Damage (1d4) for an Octopus, roll 1d20+16 for 4d4.

hogarth wrote: In 3.5E D&D, a lion grabs on with its bite and keeps biting while it scratches with its claws. What would you do differently?

In 3.5 D&D, a lion charging you requires 12 dice rolls to resolve, assuming no readied actions or special abilities on your part.

Having made 12 dice rolls, added, compared, subtracted and so on, you might end up grappled, but never prone. The actual signature attack of most hunting cats is a flying, bite-grappling takedown, but our D&D Lion can't even do that.

What I'd like? A shorter sequence of rolls that answers the following questions:
*Did I get clawed
*Did i get knocked down?
*Did I get bitten?
*Am I grappled by the bite?

Something like: Claw attack; if claws hit, takedown attack. Bite attack; if bite hits, grapple attack.

claw/claw/bite isnt meant to simulate realism, but compared to 1e character to show just how much more powerful a create with it is, and that animals don't always follow trained weapon fighting styles or the Art of War.

This sounds like what D&D4e monsters should've aimed for. Certain attacks like "pouncing" "bearhug" can be standardized across various similar monsters

Koumei wrote:Bears don't actually roar, though. Any time you see a bear roar on TV, they're dubbing a noise in because "it's a big animal, it's supposed to make a roaring noise".

In truth, bears are ninjas.

Brown bears roar, Black bears get fake roars added in to complete the bear effect.

The multiple attacks exist so that DMs can spread damage around the party or focus it unsuccessfully on high AC players. It's basically a nerf for monsters so that they feel big while being bullshit when played bullshit.

rasmuswagner wrote:

hogarth wrote: In 3.5E D&D, a lion grabs on with its bite and keeps biting while it scratches with its claws. What would you do differently?

In 3.5 D&D, a lion charging you requires 12 dice rolls to resolve, assuming no readied actions or special abilities on your part.

I think you're thinking of a tiger (which has Grab with both claw attacks and bite attacks); certainly the principle is the same (grappling takes way too many rolls).

deanruel87 wrote:

Koumei wrote:Bears don't actually roar, though. Any time you see a bear roar on TV, they're dubbing a noise in because "it's a big animal, it's supposed to make a roaring noise".

In truth, bears are ninjas.

Brown bears roar, Black bears get fake roars added in to complete the bear effect.

Koumei is just showing her regional bias.

Bears do vocalize if they feel threatened, or they're actually fighting for realsies but that's actually a pretty rare event, especially for the more timid black bear.

hogarth wrote:

rasmuswagner wrote: In 3.5 D&D, a lion charging you requires 12 dice rolls to resolve, assuming no readied actions or special abilities on your part.

I think you're thinking of a tiger (which has Grab with both claw attacks and bite attacks); certainly the principle is the same (grappling takes way too many rolls).

*5 attack rolls (claws, bite, rake)
*5 damage rolls
*Attacker and defender rolls for grapple

Grapple is shit though. Any monster that got dipped in shit is going to be a bit shitty. A monster who was a bit shit anyway and then got dipped in more shit is worse.


But yeah, we have things called crit threat ranges, that make you roll another die for exploding damage, so when a lion gets a threat on their claws they can "rake", and when a lion gets a threat on their bite they can "grapple", and you just give them a big threat range. Then you just give PCs saves vs grapple and knockdown and stuff. Like D&D, only you don't explode out to quite so many dice.

And lions get claw/claw/bite because it's normal multi-weapon rules, same as a PC can sword, shield bash, and kick with appropriate penalties. Whatever those rules are, maybe you get "extra" attacks only if you miss with the first ones or something, so kicking comes in a bit when you're outclassed and desperate. Or maybe it's like Cleave and it comes in when you're outnumbered but kicking ass. Per-monster, maybe, by feat. Whatever.

Or you could do it like 4e and have fourty different attack forms for you monsters and a different set for the guy with the spear, or like 13th age and have effects that happen when you roll an even number below ten, and a different effect when you roll a 15, and another when you roll a 19, because that's not obviously horrible enough to avoid for some reason.

K wrote:The multiple attacks exist so that DMs can spread damage around the party or focus it unsuccessfully on high AC players. It's basically a nerf for monsters so that they feel big while being bullshit when played bullshit.

I don't think it's for playing monsters with bad tactics, as I've never really seen a DM that spread around a creature's attacks. What it does is give PCs a greater chance to be bleeding and not dying. You get your monster doing around 6-14 damage per hit instead of 15-30, so that it's less likely they bring PCs to the -10 death threshold.

It also standardizes the damage more, so you don't have as large swings. If you have one big attack that can either hit, miss or critical, you're going to have way more variability. A PC can escape totally unscathed, he can take a significant hit or he can be totally pounded. When you have 3 attacks, you're much more likely to get an average result.

Assuming combat healing isn't overpowered where you can easily bring back dying guys back into the fray instantly, avoiding overkill is mathematically superior to pounding a guy with 5 hit points with your full 50 damage.

Cyberzombie wrote: I don't think it's for playing monsters with bad tactics, as I've never really seen a DM that spread around a creature's attacks.

I do it all the time.
And only part of the point is about not killing off PCs. More importantly, it's a means of engaging everyone with but a single creature - (1) no single player feels singled-out, (2) nobody really has a chance to "check-out" when it's Team Monster's turn.
There's a certain psychological aspect to it, and I've noticed that players generally like it.